ich hab heute entdeckt, dass bei den Amerikanern - nachdem Biowolf auf unseren thread aufmerksam machte - eine diskussion unter dem titel KRAUT läuft, die nicht ganz uniteressant ist:
alles: http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?t=550
einige ausgewählten zitate:
HH:
"Ott, Biowolf and SCSA, I'm impressed with your German writing, but I will not go to the German forum and even look at what is happening for this reason. European ski teaching was far behind US teaching even before PMTS. Yes, the Austrians may well have the best skiers in the world and some of their instructors are excellent skiers, but very poor teachers, by any standards. There is also an Extreme Carving faction in Europe that is ridicules skiing.
I go to Europe twice a year and watch what is happening. The extreme faction, the Carving faction, uses skis that at most are 145cm or 150 cm. The side cuts are less than 10 meter radiuses and they can’t ski anything but smooth groomed. They ski with such a wide stance that they grind out ridicules turns at very slow speeds that have no application, but for specific types of slopes and Carving competitions. This is not skiing. I have no interest in entering this discussion."
Ott Gangl:
"As I said, you are not missing much and you are absolutely right about the carving nuts. I skied in Lech/Zuers recently and they have a 'Carving course" set up with bases of different colors in ever greater off-set. Skiers look more like slalom water skiers than snow skiers, trying to get ever closer tro the snow with their butts.
Interesting though, the instructors I talked to do not include carving as belonging to skiing, it is considered a separate discipline much like half pipe and areal tricks."
RedRab (autor des idioten-zitats):
"In case it didin't come through, I will qualify the infamous quote (and I apologize sorry for the quote's over generalization).
By "skiing like idiots" I really meant the head spinners/tail sliders - the general skiing public. Non-PMTS instructors, for example, are not skiing like idiots, just inferior. Its a shame, because with their experience and athletic ability, they could be so much better..."
Ott Gangl:
"RadRab, first, you must realize that the whole world reads forums on the internet, and the Germans in particular remember well when they were told to be superior to every one else in the world and you can't blame them when they take claims of superiority with a grain of salt.
Your post, to put it mildly, was insesitive. I appreciate your zeal in wanting to master a way of skiing which obviously helped you a lot and posting enthusiastically about it. But it is rediculous to 'pound your chest' and declare to the world how superior you are in skiing and that the rest are idiots.
It really is best to contain your enthusiasm to your accomplishments and love for PMTS and refrain to declare you superiority by comments like the on here in question. Just a bit of advise from an old guy, and leave the dirty tricks to the politicians."
HH:
"OK, I had to check it out. It wasn’t that bad. I think the Germans have a sense of humor about the whole thing, and developed considerable interest in PMTS. They even quoted old posts that have been on forums for months. This I hope will help some of them as they have the poorest teaching system of all the European nations. The last German instructor manual I read still had down stem wedge (like the Canadians) and extreme carving fanatics in their midst. A limited outlook on skiing if there ever was one!."
Sind wir eine Idiotenbande?
und finally my take (posted 4/5):
OTT: „Hans, leider ist es den Deutschen nicht klar das dieser bloedsinnige Auszug der quotiert wurde nich von HH oder einem Skilehrer stammt sondern von einem Anhaenger/Verehrer der sich wahrscheinlich bei HH einschmeicheln will.“
IVAN: Sorry but not true. The quotation contains all links – both the individual post and the topic.
Nobody ever said it was HH´s statement.
The only time one poster seemed not to distinguish between HH and the quotation´s author, there was the immediate reaction:
„das blaue zitat stammt (oder wird so serviert - you never know who is who in the net) von keinem "skipapst", sondern einem PMTS anhänger...“
OTT: „Solche sachen blamieren uns nur in anderen Laendern“
IVAN: I think that only very stupid people would generalize as to say „the Americans think that...“ One poster in one forum doesn´t represent the American skiers – but that´s a very primitive truth we hopefully don´t have to repeat or emphasize here.
If somebody „blamiert sich“, it´s the author
OTT: „I read the whole long thread and am really surprised how many over there read both realskier and epicski, though with mixed results.“
IVAN: Welcome to the globalized world of www!
OTT: „... a German ski forum having picked up some nonsense quotes from a poster on this forum and are putting it through the wringer, making fun of the statements, though they give HH his due as a great skier and business man“.
IVAN: Schon besser. Thanks for your objectivity.
The „extreme carving faction“ in Europe HH mentiones is such a small community in some countries with a limited influence that it doesn´t deserve most of the lines in HH´s (4/21) post
Walter Kuchler mentioned by flying pig is the guru in a small SPORTS organization with not even 1,000 members (as opposed to about 30,000 instructors in the official federation) so that he is not representative for German ski teaching either
OTT: „oh well, they assumed that RadRab is a PMTS instructor (is he?)“
IVAN: There was not a word about RR being an instructor – the only words about him were „unkritischer Ami“ und „anhänger“ none of which meaning „instructor“ but „lack of criticism“ and „adherent“
RadRab:
QUOTE: „Its amazing. It is 2005, there are great shaped skis everywhere, but besides Worldcupers (and the small related world of serious up and coming worldcupers) and the relatively few PMTSers, everybody is skiing like a bunch of idiots.“
IVAN: I´m happy for you that you find the ideal way to improve your skiing. It´s absolutely great and do enjoy every moment you have with the people around HH and PMTS. I´m trying to understand your enthusiasm and your „the fervor of a new returnee.“
In your own words, you are good at research. and at understanding theory and even „have a pretty high IQ“.
Good for you.
In such a case you will understand that a skier using shaped skis for a year only telling „the rest of the world“ (= all except a small bunch of WC racers and a few thousand (?) PMTSers) that they „ski like a bunch of idiots“ will inevitably ridicule himself.
Ten years ago, on April 30, I first took the prototype of Head Cyber 24X and have been skiing on shaped skis since. Over the years I have seen and heard innumerable people going through the process you´re now in – enchanted by the „new“ (it has been „standard“ for some time) skis and the way to use them. I have seen many people – a lot of young racers, even some masters racers – none of them worldcuppers, but many of them on the FIS point lists with more than 5000 men names), and even some non-racers – all using the skis nicely and by far not skiing like „idiots“.
I have never heard an amateur proud of his first season on shapes defame the skidders as „idiots“. After their first season they mostly felt how much there still was to improve and to work on.
To be fair, you finally seem to have realized that you went too far: “I apologize sorry for the quote's over generalization“.
I didn´t feel hurt (just amused) but, speaking for myself, it´s okay.
(Btw, I don´t quite understand the „fact“ that „European ski teaching“ should be „far behind US teaching“ (as HH writes – he may be right, I can´t compare) but while I see people carving their turns in a modern way RadRab is evidently sorrounded by people (except PMTS, sure) „skiing like a bunch of idiots“.
Do I ski in a different Universe?)
In fact, your post does not deserve the discussion I´m involved now. It was just enough to laugh at for people who know how to ski.
It might be interesting for all of you that the „German“ forum is not just German. Among the top-ten authors are beside Germans some Swiss, Austrians, a Czech, now even Hans/Beowulf has participated.
It might be interesting for all of you that some of them are (independent) teachers very critical of „official“ teaching in Austria or Germany.
It might be interesting for all of you that one of the most frugal posters is an ex-worldcupper who not only took a few races in the very beginning of the Cup but really was number one in the world in DH in 1976 and (unfortunetely after a race for the gold) 4th in the Olympics...
OTT: „RadRab, first, you must realize that the whole world reads forums on the internet, and the Germans in particular remember well when they were told to be superior to every one else in the world and you can't blame them when they take claims of superiority with a grain of salt.
Your post, to put it mildly, was insesitive. I appreciate your zeal in wanting to master a way of skiing which obviously helped you a lot and posting enthusiastically about it. But it is rediculous to 'pound your chest' and declare to the world how superior you are in skiing and that the rest are idiots.
It really is best to contain your enthusiasm to your accomplishments and love for PMTS and refrain to declare you superiority by comments like the on here in question. Just a bit of advise from an old guy, and leave the dirty tricks to the politicians.“
IVAN: Thank you, Ott, that´s what I would expect from a wise guy „in the years that bring the philosophic mind“.
HH: „OK, I had to check it out. It wasn’t that bad. I think the Germans have a sense of humor about the whole thing, and developed considerable interest in PMTS. They even quoted old posts that have been on forums for months.“
IVAN: I hope you haven´t overlooked this summary of HH.
Typical of the people on the German forum:
„ich wollte die Kompetenz von HH nicht anzweifeln, beziehungsweise dafür müsste ich mich fairerweise im detail mit seinen Theorien auseinandersetzen, dazu fehlt mir aber momentan die Zeit.“
(to discuss HH it would be fair to know his theories in detail which I don´t have time for now)
Having seen the fights between some people on Epicski and Realskiers with personal attacks and lots of intolerance (sure, it´s the choice of people involved) I can only be proud to be one of posters on the German forum. I can´t even imagine a post there labeling some group of skiers as „idiots“.
Even if it appeared by some new poster I´m sure that there would be immediate protests by the established writers and the webmaster would not stay silent as well.
None of which I found here. Not even by usually so eloquent John Mason.
I´m too old to want to teach lessons to others but the discussion we had as „Kraut“ here might be one.
Why so much hostility? If you know what you are doing and that you are good you don´t have to be aggressive to others who are not your enemies.
(I´m just a guest here so that Guest could be enough. Or should it be "Idiot"?)
erst beim "vorschau" sehe ich, wie lang der beitrag ist...
OTT: „Hans, leider ist es den Deutschen nicht klar das dieser bloedsinnige Auszug der quotiert wurde nich von HH oder einem Skilehrer stammt sondern von einem Anhaenger/Verehrer der sich wahrscheinlich bei HH einschmeicheln will.“
IVAN: Sorry but not true. The quotation contains all links – both the individual post and the topic.
Nobody ever said it was HH´s statement.
The only time one poster seemed not to distinguish between HH and the quotation´s author, there was the immediate reaction:
„das blaue zitat stammt (oder wird so serviert - you never know who is who in the net) von keinem "skipapst", sondern einem PMTS anhänger...“
OTT: „Solche sachen blamieren uns nur in anderen Laendern“
IVAN: I think that only very stupid people would generalize as to say „the Americans think that...“ One poster in one forum doesn´t represent the American skiers – but that´s a very primitive truth we hopefully don´t have to repeat or emphasize here.
If somebody „blamiert sich“, it´s the author
OTT: „I read the whole long thread and am really surprised how many over there read both realskier and epicski, though with mixed results.“
IVAN: Welcome to the globalized world of www!
OTT: „... a German ski forum having picked up some nonsense quotes from a poster on this forum and are putting it through the wringer, making fun of the statements, though they give HH his due as a great skier and business man“.
IVAN: Schon besser. Thanks for your objectivity.
The „extreme carving faction“ in Europe HH mentiones is such a small community in some countries with a limited influence that it doesn´t deserve most of the lines in HH´s (4/21) post
Walter Kuchler mentioned by flying pig is the guru in a small SPORTS organization with not even 1,000 members (as opposed to about 30,000 instructors in the official federation) so that he is not representative for German ski teaching either
OTT: „oh well, they assumed that RadRab is a PMTS instructor (is he?)“
IVAN: There was not a word about RR being an instructor – the only words about him were „unkritischer Ami“ und „anhänger“ none of which meaning „instructor“ but „lack of criticism“ and „adherent“
RadRab:
QUOTE: „Its amazing. It is 2005, there are great shaped skis everywhere, but besides Worldcupers (and the small related world of serious up and coming worldcupers) and the relatively few PMTSers, everybody is skiing like a bunch of idiots.“
IVAN: I´m happy for you that you find the ideal way to improve your skiing. It´s absolutely great and do enjoy every moment you have with the people around HH and PMTS. I´m trying to understand your enthusiasm and your „the fervor of a new returnee.“
In your own words, you are good at research. and at understanding theory and even „have a pretty high IQ“.
Good for you.
In such a case you will understand that a skier using shaped skis for a year only telling „the rest of the world“ (= all except a small bunch of WC racers and a few thousand (?) PMTSers) that they „ski like a bunch of idiots“ will inevitably ridicule himself.
Ten years ago, on April 30, I first took the prototype of Head Cyber 24X and have been skiing on shaped skis since. Over the years I have seen and heard innumerable people going through the process you´re now in – enchanted by the „new“ (it has been „standard“ for some time) skis and the way to use them. I have seen many people – a lot of young racers, even some masters racers – none of them worldcuppers, but many of them on the FIS point lists with more than 5000 men names), and even some non-racers – all using the skis nicely and by far not skiing like „idiots“.
I have never heard an amateur proud of his first season on shapes defame the skidders as „idiots“. After their first season they mostly felt how much there still was to improve and to work on.
To be fair, you finally seem to have realized that you went too far: “I apologize sorry for the quote's over generalization“.
I didn´t feel hurt (just amused) but, speaking for myself, it´s okay.
(Btw, I don´t quite understand the „fact“ that „European ski teaching“ should be „far behind US teaching“ (as HH writes – he may be right, I can´t compare) but while I see people carving their turns in a modern way RadRab is evidently sorrounded by people (except PMTS, sure) „skiing like a bunch of idiots“.
Do I ski in a different Universe?)
In fact, your post does not deserve the discussion I´m involved now. It was just enough to laugh at for people who know how to ski.
It might be interesting for all of you that the „German“ forum is not just German. Among the top-ten authors are beside Germans some Swiss, Austrians, a Czech, now even Hans/Beowulf has participated.
It might be interesting for all of you that some of them are (independent) teachers very critical of „official“ teaching in Austria or Germany.
It might be interesting for all of you that one of the most frugal posters is an ex-worldcupper who not only took a few races in the very beginning of the Cup but really was number one in the world in DH in 1976 and (unfortunetely after a race for the gold) 4th in the Olympics...
OTT: „RadRab, first, you must realize that the whole world reads forums on the internet, and the Germans in particular remember well when they were told to be superior to every one else in the world and you can't blame them when they take claims of superiority with a grain of salt.
Your post, to put it mildly, was insesitive. I appreciate your zeal in wanting to master a way of skiing which obviously helped you a lot and posting enthusiastically about it. But it is rediculous to 'pound your chest' and declare to the world how superior you are in skiing and that the rest are idiots.
It really is best to contain your enthusiasm to your accomplishments and love for PMTS and refrain to declare you superiority by comments like the on here in question. Just a bit of advise from an old guy, and leave the dirty tricks to the politicians.“
IVAN: Thank you, Ott, that´s what I would expect from a wise guy „in the years that bring the philosophic mind“.
HH: „OK, I had to check it out. It wasn’t that bad. I think the Germans have a sense of humor about the whole thing, and developed considerable interest in PMTS. They even quoted old posts that have been on forums for months.“
IVAN: I hope you haven´t overlooked this summary of HH.
Typical of the people on the German forum:
„ich wollte die Kompetenz von HH nicht anzweifeln, beziehungsweise dafür müsste ich mich fairerweise im detail mit seinen Theorien auseinandersetzen, dazu fehlt mir aber momentan die Zeit.“
(to discuss HH it would be fair to know his theories in detail which I don´t have time for now)
Having seen the fights between some people on Epicski and Realskiers with personal attacks and lots of intolerance (sure, it´s the choice of people involved) I can only be proud to be one of posters on the German forum. I can´t even imagine a post there labeling some group of skiers as „idiots“.
Even if it appeared by some new poster I´m sure that there would be immediate protests by the established writers and the webmaster would not stay silent as well.
None of which I found here. Not even by usually so eloquent John Mason.
I´m too old to want to teach lessons to others but the discussion we had as „Kraut“ here might be one.
Why so much hostility? If you know what you are doing and that you are good you don´t have to be aggressive to others who are not your enemies.
(I´m just a guest here so that Guest could be enough. Or should it be "Idiot"?)
erst beim "vorschau" sehe ich, wie lang der beitrag ist...
willkommen, Ott,
bin recht froh, dass du den weg "back to the roots" gefunden hast, auch wenn du nur ganz leise ab und zu hier liest
sonst müssten deine beiträge eine bereicherung des forums sein, so wie sie in den amerikanischen sind
auch habe mich neulich auf realskiers unterschrieben...
btw, es war keine zusammenfassung meinerseits, ich habe einfach die realskiers-posts reihenweise genommen und auf bestimmte sachen reagiert
und ein wenig das forum hier in schutz genommen, denn, wie ich fest überzeugt bin, wir waren recht fair und keinesfalls aggressiv oder fanatisch, wie es oft auf realskiers (manchmal wohl auf epicski) der fall ist
willst du hier nicht deine private website vorstellen?
Uwe, Ott ist ein spezialmitglied, der ein (leider virtuelles) stamperl verdienen würde!
bin recht froh, dass du den weg "back to the roots" gefunden hast, auch wenn du nur ganz leise ab und zu hier liest
sonst müssten deine beiträge eine bereicherung des forums sein, so wie sie in den amerikanischen sind
auch habe mich neulich auf realskiers unterschrieben...
btw, es war keine zusammenfassung meinerseits, ich habe einfach die realskiers-posts reihenweise genommen und auf bestimmte sachen reagiert
und ein wenig das forum hier in schutz genommen, denn, wie ich fest überzeugt bin, wir waren recht fair und keinesfalls aggressiv oder fanatisch, wie es oft auf realskiers (manchmal wohl auf epicski) der fall ist
willst du hier nicht deine private website vorstellen?
Uwe, Ott ist ein spezialmitglied, der ein (leider virtuelles) stamperl verdienen würde!
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Ott Gangl
- Beiträge: 11
- Registriert: 04.05.2005 23:02
- Wohnort: Uniontown, OH via Bavaria
- Kontaktdaten:
Meine web seite betrifft meinem Beruf als Photojournalist zu, schi bilder sind keine da... http://home.neo.rr.com/ottmar
....Ot
....Ot
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urs
- Beiträge: 2225
- Registriert: 05.01.2003 14:15
- Vorname: urs
- Ski: stöckli
- Wohnort: zürich
- Kontaktdaten:
salü ivanivan hat geschrieben:In such a case you will understand that a skier using shaped skis for a year only telling „the rest of the world ... ski like a bunch of idiots“ will inevitably ridicule himself.
hab ich das richtig gelesen, dass dieser hh-jünger erst seit einem jahr auf carving-skies fährt? vom saulus zum paulus - das würde manches erklären und macht seine haltung noch absurder. btw. im camp 04 konnten wir ein video vom swiss snow demo team von anno 1996 sehen (ua. mit vreni schneider, simon jacomet, sepp bürcher). radrab würde bauklötze staunen, was die damals schon gefahren sind.
hh scheint sich wenig um die entwicklung in europa zu kümmern sondern pickt in seinen augen schlechte beispiele heraus, um seine überlegenheit zu beweisen. er scheint hier nicht "open minded" zu sein, und es überrascht von daher auch nicht, dass einige seiner anhänger so sektiererisch auftreten. auf jeden fall hat mich das, was ich bislang von ihm gelesen und gesehen habe, nicht vom sockel gehauen.
gruss urs
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M.H.
- Beiträge: 970
- Registriert: 16.02.2005 13:40
- Vorname: Michael
- Ski: Edelwiser
- Ski-Level: 43
- Wohnort: Mödling, Österreich
Wenn er sagen würde, daß andere es auch gut machen und daß er auch "nur mit Wasser kocht" würde er doch um einiges weniger verkaufen.urs hat geschrieben:hh scheint sich wenig um die entwicklung in europa zu kümmern sondern pickt in seinen augen schlechte beispiele heraus, um seine überlegenheit zu beweisen. er scheint hier nicht "open minded" zu sein, ...
Potenziert doch herrlich die Werbebotschaft, erinnert aber trotzdem irgendwie an die "Zeugenaussagen" die Teleshops zum "Nachweis" der Produktqualität bringenurs hat geschrieben:und es überrascht von daher auch nicht, dass einige seiner anhänger so sektiererisch ...
mein lieber co-idiot urs,
es ist nicht mehr so heiss
wie du vielleicht schon gesehen hast, gab es gestern auf realskiers eine verlängerte diskussion mit dem symbolischen ergebnis "peace"
RedRab wurde sich eigentlich schon davor (auch dank dem post von Ott Gangl, s.oben) dessen bewusst, dass er alles übertrieben hatte. er hat die zahl der akzeptierten no-idioten einigermassen erweitert und wurde in seinen formulationen vorsichtiger
auch hast du gelesen, wie ich ihm ein kleines etwas über die situation in Europa geschrieben hatte
natürlich können wir alle, die um die jahre 96-98 an dem funcarving-boom irgendwie beteiligt waren, nur schmunzeln
das legendäre video wurde ja vor dem CC diskutiert. gegen eine Vreni Schneider generell und nur ein jahr nach ihrem letzten WC-sieg speziell kann wohl kaum jemand etwas sagen
die schilderung Europas als eine region wo spezialisierte "funcarving-factions" vorherrschen und ton angeben ist natürlich falsch
sollte sich HH während seiner Europa-woche immer im Pitztal mit den SPORTS-leuten treffen bei ihrem traditionellen Verbandsmeeting, könnte evtl. ein solcher eindruck entstehen, aber kaum auf dem Tuxer gletscher
für die meisten Amerikaner aus dem westen ist natürlich pistenskilauf zweitrangig und die funcarvenden Europäer mögen ihnen komisch vorkommen,
but no one should twist the reality the "pars pro toto" way
es ist nicht mehr so heiss
wie du vielleicht schon gesehen hast, gab es gestern auf realskiers eine verlängerte diskussion mit dem symbolischen ergebnis "peace"
RedRab wurde sich eigentlich schon davor (auch dank dem post von Ott Gangl, s.oben) dessen bewusst, dass er alles übertrieben hatte. er hat die zahl der akzeptierten no-idioten einigermassen erweitert und wurde in seinen formulationen vorsichtiger
auch hast du gelesen, wie ich ihm ein kleines etwas über die situation in Europa geschrieben hatte
natürlich können wir alle, die um die jahre 96-98 an dem funcarving-boom irgendwie beteiligt waren, nur schmunzeln
das legendäre video wurde ja vor dem CC diskutiert. gegen eine Vreni Schneider generell und nur ein jahr nach ihrem letzten WC-sieg speziell kann wohl kaum jemand etwas sagen
die schilderung Europas als eine region wo spezialisierte "funcarving-factions" vorherrschen und ton angeben ist natürlich falsch
sollte sich HH während seiner Europa-woche immer im Pitztal mit den SPORTS-leuten treffen bei ihrem traditionellen Verbandsmeeting, könnte evtl. ein solcher eindruck entstehen, aber kaum auf dem Tuxer gletscher
für die meisten Amerikaner aus dem westen ist natürlich pistenskilauf zweitrangig und die funcarvenden Europäer mögen ihnen komisch vorkommen,
but no one should twist the reality the "pars pro toto" way